Bob Owens

The saddest truth in politics is that people get the leaders they deserve

Minutemen and the next war

Written By: Bob - Aug• 19•12

I ran across an interesting article by one Jim Karger (via TTAG) this morning, that claims When They Come For Your Guns, You Will Turn Them Over:

If the federal government decides to disarm the public, and when the increasingly-militarized rolls down your street after a not-so-subtle request that you kindly turn over your firearms and ammunition “for the common good,” it will be nothing less than suicide by cop to do anything other than what you are told.

The militarization of US police forces is ongoing and escalating. Many cities and towns now own tanks, armed personnel carriers, even attack helicopters, and almost all are outfitted with military weapons not available to the general public.

And, it is not just your hometown cops who are getting new boy-toys. The military itself is buying up weaponry not just for use in the current or next scheduled war, but to deal with the likes of you, citizens who don’t seem to understand that the Bill of Rights has been overruled, and that specifically includes, but is not limited to, the right to protest and engage in civil disobedience.

He concludes:

And, to you tough-talking Neo-Cons with your AR-15 rifles and a few thousand rounds of ammo, here is the reality: they will take your guns, and no, all your Second Amendment bluster aside, you are not going to do anything about it. You are not going to take on a platoon of Marines with state-of-the-art automatic weapons and the best body armor you cannot buy protected by armed personnel carriers and attack helicopters unless you choose to die that day — for nothing. You will either be in the country or out, and if you are in, you will stay in and you will comply.

I know nothing of Karger or of the site this was posted on, but I do Karger knows very, very little about history, and equally little about current events.

We still have hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Vietnam veterans that would be quite willing to tell you how well a determined cell-based opposition force can fight against even the most technologically advanced military. Our far more recent and current battles in Iraq and Afghanistan saw us defeat uniformed conventional opposition easily, but we continue to be bled by an enemy hidden among the citizenry.

Our own Green Berets have among their primary tasks the building out of, and liaison with, such indigenous rebel forces. They do so, because guerillas can and do destabilize, and sometimes defeat, larger military forces.

Karger’s article is based upon a laughably false premise: that the only choices are to submit to the government, or be gunned down where you stand. Granted there may be a comparatively small number of foolhardy individual souls that would, in such a scenario, attempt to slug it out with a larger, better armed force.

There may also be groups of citizens that form small units—there are millions of recent combat veterans and tens of millions of “old soldiers” in addition to plain ornery full-time civilians—that would put up a more spirited defense, and defeat police state enforcers from ambush, in skirmishes or in open battles.

Hundreds of millions of weapons and billions (with a “B”) of rounds of ammunition would suddenly “disappear,” or be “stolen” in such an event, as stores suddenly and simultaneously ran out of every type of container that could be waterproofed, sealed, and buried.

Logistically, the police state might be able to hold the major cities and transportation arteries, but there simple aren’t enough of them to subdue an entire population, even in the exceedingly unlikely event that the military and police forces would universally back such an obviously unconstitutional act of tyranny.

Then the insurrection would begin in earnest.

Americans are perhaps the best population the world has ever known for such a fight. As a population, we are used to freedom, and many would not surrender it easily. This mental shift is difficult to make in captive populations that have never known freedom. It is our natural advantage.

We’re also blessed to have a heritage of minuteman to rally around. True, the Brown Bess and bayonets are next to useless in a practical sense, but we have at our core a history of being a nation of riflemen.

Mr. Karger is correct that a suburbanite that hunts several times a year is no match for an armored personnel carrier and a squad of heavily armed soldiers and policemen squaring off against him in his neighborhood, but that is not how such an insurgency is won. Insurgencies are “wars of the flea,” where the beastly state is drained of life one tiny drop at a time through bombings and poisonings, arsons and sniper attacks. There is no need to do battle with an M1A2 main battle tank, if the pipeline that supplies its with fuel cannot be guarded along every inch. Enveloped and surrounded at every turn, the thugs that would carry out the will of such an immoral government would be sabotaged at every turn, unable to let their guards down, and find the knife at their throats from friends and family alike.

I’ve read estimates that only three-percent of Americans took up arms against the British crown in the Revolutionary War. Three-percent of 314 million is 9.42 million Americans, and there is not reason to believe that only 3-percent of the population would fight against such tyranny.

It is a responsibility of patriotic Americans to learn to shoot, and learn to shoot well. It is incumbent upon them to maintain serviceable weapons of “military utility” such as today’s semi-automatic rifles and deer rifles, and sufficient ammunition for adequate training and emergency use. Being competent at arms is precisely what the Founders meant when they stated the militia—which is all of the people—be “well-regulated” and in good working order to defend their families, communities, and nation against enemies foreign and domestic.

History tells us that tyrants always emerge to snuff out liberty, and those tyrants never allow something as trivial as a ballot box to stand in their way. It is your duty as an American to be prepared to defend liberty for following generations.

As long as there is a Republic, Minuteman will always be needed to defend it.

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  1. Phelps says:

    Another thing he seems to forget is that in shootouts with the police, the police are killed regularly. Even if that only happened in 1-in-20 of these raids, we would run out of police long before we ran out of armed citizens.

    • Steven says:

      I’d like to add that I do not believe that most military and/or police would blindly follow such orders.

      Some might say Katrina nullifies this opinion, and that is a fair argument.

      All that said – I sincerely pray this never comes to pass and do not want, seek, nor look forward to having to shoot at LEOs – I respect them because of what they do, due to my many friends in that line of work, and out of respect for the difficulty of their jobs.

  2. 1IDVET says:

    Hi Bob,

    Nicely done.
    I agree. Too many people in America would fight back, and a lot are ready to do so now.
    “…there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.”

  3. Orion says:

    Phelps nailed it. And I can assure you once they start trying to collect firearms, I’m not going to sit and wait for them to show up.

    I’m going hunting. And fortunately, they all seem to return to bases like Police Stations (which are NOT set up to be proof to assault) and military bases – likely well within reach of a .30-06 and a scope.

    Like you said, far fewer of them then there are of us. As Phelps said, they’d run out of police and treasonous Soldiers (betraying their oath) long before they ran out of armed and resisting citizens.


  4. Just A Vet says:

    Never under estimate the ability to take your enemies weapons, ammunition and food away from their corpses!

  5. david7134 says:

    I think the example that you need to look at is Australia. They just gave up. Most Americans would do the same. The problem for the police is that we have a few radicals that would love to go out shooting. One or two of those and the average cop will not enforce the law, they have less courage than you think (cops have one of the lowest death and injury rates of any job).

    One other thing, the American Revolution was as much a civil war as it was a war against England. We were just as busy fighting each other as we were anyone else. It is estimated that only 20 to 30% actually wanted a US without English control.

  6. Indigo Red says:

    I’m not so sure at all that police, National Guards, and regular military would be willing to follow orders to disarm American citizens. One of the reasons many men and women choose these dangerous jobs is because they believe in freedom and the Constitution and have dedicated their lives to the defense of those ideas. An armed citizenry is one of those freedoms that our armed authorities enjoy as private citizens as well. I do know the police and soldiers in my family would not follow such an order no matter who was giving it.

  7. Sean says:

    Plus something that Karger, the CSGV, the lefty media etc CONSISTENTLY forget. The human mind is the ultimate weapon…the guns are just tools CONTROLLED by that weapon.

  8. Brad says:

    The general tone of the Karger piece but particularly the “neo-con” reference perked my attention. And just as I suspected, Jim Karger is a person whom we needn’t pay any attention to more than any other typical left-wing anti-gun internet troll.

    Jim Karger is a rich retired lawyer from Texas who moved to Mexico over 10 years ago. He doesn’t matter.

    His opinion is one I have seen repeated by anti-gunners many times going all the way back to the early 1990’s. So it is very unoriginal as well as extremely ignorant. Anti-gunners fantasize that we would just roll over for oppression, just as they fantasize that the political power of the NRA is a myth.

    In reality, history has proven that even before widespread oppression of gun-rights could occur, the political backlash will crush the anti-gun forces, just as they did in the 1994 U.S. elections.

    But let as also look at U.S. history for a reality check, when considering the anti-gun wish fulfillment scenario of the U.S. military and police employed to disarm the public. When it began to appear that such a scenario would become reality in the dark days of 1994 before the November election, gunnies were spontaneously banding together for potential mutual self-defense. This was usually called the militia movement.

    The militia movement was mostly clumsy, disorganized, and doctrinally ignorant. But it was just getting off the ground when the election results of 1994 removed any need for such groups. If instead the militia movement was given enough time and provocation, I have no doubt that the cost of imposing a general firearm confiscation would have been far from bloodless. It would have instead been the Fort Sumter opening round of a violent civil war. You never know how a civil war might turn out, but I doubt the result here would have been with the anti-gunners left in control of the nation.

    Then there is the lone wolf problem, such as Timothy McVeigh. How would the forces of gun-control deal with hundreds of such individuals running amok? Because the scenario proposed by Jim Karger would not only have to deal with the open defiance of militia groups, it would also be under attack from the lone wolves.

    Let us all be grateful that such a dreadful scenario is almost impossible to come about. The political process, however balky, still works in the United States and will head off the dreamy utopian nightmares of the zealots of gun control. Even the limited localities in the U.S. which still impose draconian gun-control will eventually succumb to litigation empowered by the Constitution’s 14th Amendment.

  9. lorimay1 says:

    I have to agree with all of you.there are alot of veterans like myself who would fight rather than give up our rights and our freedoms.i know better than to understamate our enemies,however the gurella can do alot of damage to an army.hit and run tactits also worked very well during ww2

  10. Then there’s this: if this were ever to happen, recruitment of the police and military would need to be very selective to be sure that they become staffed by people who would repress their own people. While there are no doubt such people in any large organization, I find it insulting to even state that a ‘platoon of Marines’ would be coming down an American street to engage the citizens! Karger does not know the ethos of the American military. They serve to protect the country, the people and the Constitution, not to serve despotism.

  11. Cole says:

    Excellent article. I would point out that we’ve already seen the police follow such orders. Post-Katrina being a prime example. Sadly, I doubt most police or military would disobey. They devote their lives to duty and following orders. Ignoring that would be difficult for even the most principled man. And they aren’t all principled men. Any resistors could be replaced by partisans. There are plenty of Occupy types who would love to be given a badge and a gun.

    Even if they did revolt in large numbers the government could just deploy foreign troops and mercenaries. Russian troops were spotted recently training here on American soil. Why? And before we dismiss the idea, remember that the end result of Fast and Furious was arming a Mexican drug cartel. One with close ties to the new Mexican President and his benefactor George Soros. Maybe expanding gun control was just icing on the cake. Crazy? Probably, but the son of the Sinoloa Cartel leader says that was the true purpose of Fast and Furious. An armed cartel could be used to help quell any uprising. And they’d have no qualms about shooting Americans. Neither would the UN. Or the Russians. And so on.

    We must also keep in mind that China isn’t idle while our leaders scheme of tyranny. The Chinese plan is to wait until our economy is at a tipping point then initiate an attack on our electronic infrastructure through targeted hacking. Now many assume in the ensuing chaos they’d simply swallow up the Pacific. But who says they won’t just invade? Why not kill the rival super power first? Then they can take the undefended Pacific at their leisure.

    In the end Bob is right, be prepared.

  12. styrgwillidar says:

    Krager misses the point that US military members swear their oath to the constitution. Not the government, not congress, not the president. The constitution and the system of government it lays out. They would not obey orders to confiscate weaponry from the citizens.

    It’s not an order I, or any officer I ever served with would give.

  13. J says:

    After 15 years in the Army I cannot think of a single one of my Soldiers that would have obeyed an order to disarm Americans. FWIW, I was in New Orleans in the aftermath of Katrina and there was often a divide between how LEOs treated the civilians and how we treated them. We (Army) were there to do civil support operations… the LEOs were there to enforce the law.

    I do not wish to cast LEOs in a negative light but I feel quite certain that the military would not be the main concern if the .gov decided that the 2nd Amendment needed to go away.

    Besides, there are literally hundreds of thousands of Veterans that are now experts at counterinsurgency. I cannot imagine a better prepared group of Patriots for conducting an actual insurgency.

    I, of course, hope that this discussion is merely academic.

  14. david7134 says:

    I might point out that police and national guard disarmed civilians in New Orleans following the hurricane. This was at a time when their lives were in danger due to roving bans of blacks. So don’t give me the concept that the police and others will not follow orders.

    • Steven says:

      There was also a National Guard unit that brought to their command’s attention that guns were being confiscated and that they were not going to participate. Now, they may, or may not have been originally slotted to do just that, but the word came back down from the “puzzle palace” that they would not be asked to do it.

      And, in my unit, we have discussed this extensively, both officially and “around the water cooler” – WE wouldn’t participate either.

      SOME will, but not all. Just keeping it in perspective.

  15. Joe Doakes says:

    I’m confident Minneapolis cops would go door-to-door with metal detectors and instant-background-check printouts in a heartbeat, if they could get away with seizing civilian guns. Rebels will have to depend on stolen guns and ammo. That makes cops prime targets for bow hunters and farmers with long guns buried in the back 40. The first phase of disarmanent will be quick and easy; the second . . . not so much.

  16. Fyrewerx says:

    Krager says that citizens are no match for armored personel carriers, yet it seems we see photos of Syrian citizens (rebels) celebrating on top of destroyed tanks at least once per week.